Manyshot Change

TL:DR version. MS only:Full time archer got buffed. Some extreme examples lost burst damage, high RP builds with low DS. At 35DS and 28BAB you get the same number of hits over 2minutes but more RP during MS, so numbers slightly below may still be ahead. MS and 10k: Monkchers are still ahead of pure rangers if they have minimum 8 monk levels or have ranger levels.

*changes: manyshot was changed to have 120 doubleshot (DS) bonus instead of 4x BAB. This is a buff at all levels except 30 with full BAB which is unchanged*

As I write this I’m on a pure ranger life checking out the changes. As I hit the 18-20 range manyshot (MS) felt like it had the kick of the old one. The new manyshot is just plain terrible at low levels now that it’s more dependent on base attack bonus (BAB). This is not really a big deal since the new elemental arrows is very strong at low levels. For a designated full time archer ranger the new manyshot is stronger, racial maybe a little tougher to catch up. You may hear a lot to the contrary, but it’s true. We’ll do some math in a minute. Those who are hit by the change are bursters, melee with manyshot just for bursting with minimal bow dedication particularly those in legendary dreadnaught (blitzers), but we’ll look at some math there too, and at monkchers.

Manyshot can be active 20/120 seconds = 1/6, old MS had 110sec of 0 DS (excluding uptime)= 9/12, leaving 1/12 time. I assume maximum uptime since any extended downtime doesn’t differ between the two versions.

First let’s look at a pure ranger over 2 minutes. Prior to the change few built for doubleshot and if you used manyshot it was 0 most of the time. Let’s assume a 70 doubleshot which requires killer, strike like lightning (T5 DWS) and AA capstone (not considering the level 28 ED feat which favors the new style but I never stay at cap obviously this feat favors the new style), and assume a BAB of 25 (nice for calculations and low epic levels go very fast). The change to killer actually makes this assumption not too much of a stretch, since it fades 1 stack at a time now it is easy to keep up and lasts longer in a boss fight.

Talking average number of arrows per animation (hereafter refered to as hits) over 2 mintues for now; we’ll come back to ranged power (RP).

Old style comes to 4*1/6 + 9/12 +1/12*(1+.70) = 1.56

New style comes to 1/6* (1+4*25+.70)+ 5/6*(1+.70) = 1.87

Over two minutes the new manyshot is ahead on number of hits, not even considering the RP boost.

50 RP base

When we consider the RP boost it’s important to include the downtime RP as this influences the overall improvement during manyshot. Calculated below are the effective hits of anything that scales with RP.

Old style comes to 4*1/6 + 9/12 +1/12*(1+.70) = 1.73*1.5 = 2.34

New style comes to 1/6* (1+4*25+.70)*(1+.50+1.00)+ 5/6*(1+.70)*1.5 = 3.25

100 RP base

Using these same calculations, old gives 3.12 and new gives 4.18.

I have an excel spreadsheet that can show outcomes for any BAB/RP/DS that I will post when I can.


Let’s take that same ranger and look at bursting, using just the active manyshot portions of the above calculations.

Actual Hits: old 4. new 2.7

Effective hits:

50RP base: old 6. new 6.75

100RP base: old 8. new 8.1

150RP base: old 10. new 9.45

Interestingly, for high enough values of RP you are seeing a burst decline under the new system. Only for the burst portion, the 2 minute total is ahead always for this level of DS. At 108 base RP is where they cross for 70DS. I don’t think this is an issue unless blitzing and the new synergy suggests bursting in DC might be the way to go. For non-fury builds I don’t find it onerous to take T5 in DWS as head shot is nice when you don’t have adrenaline.

For Fury bursting we need to assume 50 DS since you will want that slaying arrow. At this lower DS the break even base RP bursting is 67. Meaning above 67 RP the old was better, below 67RP the new is better. With the new MS you just see 2-3 really big numbers instead of 4 big numbers. At 100 RP the new version is about a 7-8% reduction in burst damage. Even in this RP region the over 2 minute damage will be better.

Lets look at a bursting Hybrid, assuming low investment in DS. Maybe ~15-20, 9 past life and 8 on gear easy enough to fit in. Calculations for 15DS and 25BAB.

Actual Hits: old 4. new 2.15

Effective hits:

50RP base: old 6. new 5.375

100RP base: old 8. new 6.45

150RP base: old 10. new 7.525

For a hybrid with 15DS and 25 BAB the breakeven RP for effective hits (bursting) is only 17, pretty low. It looks like hybrids are losing for sure. But, a higher BAB will recover some of this. A 28 BAB brings the crossover to 47RP. When the cap goes to 30, this will move further to a 71 base RP before the old MS would be better. Basically the lower your DS and the higher your RP the more you lose in the change.

Divine Crusader bursting with zeal of the righteous. Considering a burst only, hitting zeal right before manyshot, and still 25BAB, we get an average bonus from zeal of 41 DS/RP for the MS duration.

For our 20 ranger with 70DS:

Actual Hits: old 4. new 3.11

Effective hits:

50RP base: old 7.64. new 9.05

100RP base: old 9.64. new 10.6

For our Hybrid with 15 DS:

Actual Hits: old 4. new 2.56

Effective hits:

50RP base: old 7.64. new 7.45

100RP base: old 9.64. new 8.73

Didn’t include the 50DS slaying arrow guy since he is going to be in Fury.

Moving on

I think that covers a pure ranger and we had a look at bursting. From the calcs for bursting above, if we can get some decent DS we’re going to be ok for all but the highest RP. Now let’s consider a racial AA with no ranger levels. Which pretty much means monkcher or flavor build. So we’ll assume monkcher. We’ll look at a monkcher with ranger levels also.

What base DS is that going to allow? no killer, no strike like lightning = -20 to -40 over our pure ranger above. That puts us in 35-40 range assuming gear, past lives, and AA capstone. Let’s be conservative and go with 35DS, with a 25 BAB, 40 wisdom and we’ll compare 6 or 12 monk. We will also assume a rotation of MS, 10sec down, 10k, 30sec down, 10k.


Actual arrows: Old 2. New 1.67.

Effective hits: (for things that scale with RP)

50RP base: old 3. new 3.22

100RP base: old 4. new 4.06


Actual arrows: Old 2. New 1.81.

Effective hits: (for things that scale with RP)

50RP base: old 3. new 3.51

100RP base: old 4. new 4.44

Looking at these numbers a 6mnk monkcher is not beating a pure ranger, break point is 8 monk levels. The 1/2 up time of 10k makes monk level very important.

Let’s see about a capstone elf AA 20 monk:

Actual arrows: Old 2. New 2.02.

Effective hits: (for things that scale with RP)

50RP base: old 3. new 3.87

100RP base: old 4. new 4.90

One thing left to look at, monkcher with ranger levels.

For a slaying arrow build, DS pretty much as above due to AP limits and you lose due to 10k being reduced. So let’s run numbers for a T5 DWS sacrificing AA cap and slaying arrow for head shot, killer, and strike like lightning. So 50 DS, 25BAB, 40wis.


Actual arrows: Old 2. New 1.97.

Effective hits: (for things that scale with RP)

50RP base: old 3. new 3.79

100RP base: old 4. new 4.77


Actual arrows: Old 2. New 2.02.

Effective hits: (for things that scale with RP)

50RP base: old 3. new 3.88

100RP base: old 4. new 4.89

14 monk ends up very close to 20 monk with the loss in 10k offset by the increase in DS.

Monkcher summary: if fury shotting with slaying arrow pure monk is the way to go. *if they ever get racial AA core 5 working right this will be the thing to do* If not in fury I’m liking 14/6 focusing on DWS T5, saving lots of AP over elf and getting sniper shot. With 12mnk/5rng/3pally possible for defender if you are willing to give up sniper shot and metaline arrows. Or 13mnk/6rng/1rog or arti for traps and diamond soul.

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